British dealers selling on ebay.....

[mrp1017]

Guys,
I see a lot of you selling some great British issues on eBay. Thanks for taking the time to show the world your inventory. Many of you have wonderful cards.

A few suggestions to those looking to capture any of the US market.

1. Please, take the time to do a proper description. Just relying on the phrase "look at the scan" isn't going to do. We like to know about the CARD and not the issue. Tell me about any paper creasing, wear on the corners, any recolouring and most importantly, the fact if this card has been mounted in an album or frame and have those annoying mounting dimples in the corners. To us these are the same as creases and severely impact the condition of the card.

2. Is it a set? Complete? If it is take the time to show me any cards in that set that are the KEYS to the set. 1938 Churchman BP set, show me a scan of the 7 higher valued cards like the Louis, Dempsey, Braddock, etc. This allows me to see the set has X value instead of a lessor Y value. Then you can ballpark the average grade of the commons and give an accurate representation of the set.

Two easy rules that make for a good auction. I am sure if you take any of this into serious consideration you will reap more profits from your auctions. Yes, I know I can send you an email asking for all this info. But if I am looking at 20-30 auctions its difficult to keep all the info straight. If it is right there in the description its easier for us to work with.

All the best.

[lachlan]

I agree wholeheartedly! I've emailed ebay sellers asking for condition reports on numerous occasions but a typical response, often from ebay dealers, is that as I can return the cards if I don't like them, what's the problem. Talk about pathetic customer service.

[IanSammel]

I think you have to realise that there is an enormous difference between the US market and the British market.  An English collector will most likely want to buy a complete set and not be interested in a single card.  On the other hand, a US collector will most likely be interested in a particular card and not be interested in the rest of the set.  English dealers probably just don't understand why anyone would make such a fuss about knowing minute details about one specific card in a set rather than just knowing the average grading for the whole set.  With the increasing globalization brought about by sites such as Ebay this could well change but you probably have to be patient 

There is another thread on this site (can't remember where at present but I think it was about a check list for one of the bubble gum sets) which illustrates this difference very well.  A US collector had the card graded and "bricked".  An English collector then bought it to add to his collection and removed the card from the brick with a hacksaw.

[lachlan]

No doubt there is a difference between the US and UK market-place, but surely dealers (rather than just ordinary sellers) operating from the Ebay UK site could be more informative and consistent when it comes to grading, rather than just rely upon the buyer's right to return items not up to scratch? If I were a dealer, or even just a seller, I would go out of my way to try and inform a prospective buyer rather than just adopt a take it or leave it attitude, which some dealers appear to do. The CSGB has a grading scheme so all dealers have to do is to use that when describing cards. Where's the problem with that?

[IanSammel]

The CSGB has a grading scheme so all dealers have to do is to use that when describing cards. Where's the problem with that?

The CSGB grading scheme is fine for the British market but not for the US.  Look at US Ebay and you'll find that people are more interested in things like exactly how square or rounded the corners are when viewed under magnification (!), how well centered the picture is,  etc.  Cards are then generally graded on a scale of 1-10.  A card which may be EX straight out of the packet in the UK may be downgraded in the US because it was cut off-centre.  The CSGB system doesn't account for things like that.  I once bought a set of cards described as mint by a reputable UK dealer.  They had been so badly cut that the corners weren't 90 degrees and the cards looked completely skew.  In the US they would be downgraded because of that although they were still in the condition in which they were manufactured which justifies mint in the UK.

You also have to consider that grading a card the US way requires a detailed examination of the card which takes a lot of time.  Then after you have examined it and entered all the details into Ebay which takes more time, even if you sell it you have still only sold one card.  It's much easier to sell a whole set just by saying it's VG or whatever. 

[mrp1017]

I have been able to equate the CSGB grading scale to the US Beckett Grading scale so both work well for me. I know if I am buying from British dealers then I need to know British terms.
The set buying procedure as others have described in this topic used to be the norm for the US when I started to collect in the 1970's. Open a set and see the consistency of the edges, look at the Mickey Mantle card and close up the box. Unfortunately, things here have gotten a bit more detailed since many sets, sports in particular, have major star players among the common players. I have to think this also true with British footballers or cricket sets, no?
As for detailed grading taking a whole lot of time? Not when you know how to grade. I can grade a card in a matter of 5-10 seconds on the US scale and probably quicker on a British scale. Any educated dealer selling cards should be able to do the same.

[mrp1017]

The CSGB has a grading scheme so all dealers have to do is to use that when describing cards. Where's the problem with that?

The problem with that is that while it allows you to get a sense of the grade, it leaves little to specifics. A Very Good card is defined as such by CSGB:

"Cards completely clean back and front, with no damage.  In particular corners would be untouched, but edges might show slight signs of wear. "

What about creases? What about other inclusions like corner mounting dimples? Print marks? Centering? Staining?
I have seen VG defined cards with a hairline crease and razor sharp corners. Over or undergraded?
I have seen VG defined cards with glue staining on the back with no creases and razor corners.

While I realize that the CSGB scale is only a guide and should be treated as such. A dealer selling his cards or representing a clients cards could do a better job if he went into greater detail to categorized the given grade. I know I would be angry if I got VG or EX cards with either creases or staining without being alerted to the fact.
I see this as the next generation of British collectors who should expect more from their local dealers.

[IanSammel]

If a card has a crease then it's not VG.  I think that's implicit in the grading scheme because if you look at "good" then there it's explicitly stated that no creases or stains should be visible.  If they are not permitted for a "good" grading then they are certainly not permitted for VG or better.  If someone tried to sell me a card with a crease and demanded the VG price then I wouldn't buy it, regardless of how good it was otherwise. 

I think that when the scheme was drawn up, it went without saying that the better grades shouldn't have creases etc.  By the time you get down to "good" maybe some people would consider whether they could get away with a crease or stain.  So the grading system makes it clear that even there they are not permitted.  Such cards are at best "fair".

It does raise the interesting question of what would happen if the cards were creased by a fault in the manufacturing process.  Could they be considered mint?  In that respect I think the US grading system gives a much better indication of what the card actually looks like.

[mrp1017]

I understand what you are saying. It makes sense. Perhaps its just bad grading on the dealers part.

Then any card with the hint of a crease, wrinkle or factory roller mark like the crosshatching on Churchman cards is never good enough to be better than a FAIR card under CSGB? I would be ok with that although it seems like too many sellers are not.

With American grading creases are generally considered a 2x-3x grading level deductible. So if the card is Near Mint (or Excellent by CSGB), the card with a wrinkle on the front would suffer a 3x knockdown, 2x if it s on the back. So a Near Mint card is Ex (back) and Vg/Ex (front).

[IanSammel]

Then any card with the hint of a crease, wrinkle or factory roller mark like the crosshatching on Churchman cards is never good enough to be better than a FAIR card under CSGB? I would be ok with that although it seems like too many sellers are not.

That's the problem.  The CSGB considers mint as being the condition the card left the printers.  So if the printing process left a load of roller marks then the card could still be considered mint.  I guess you just have to know your cards.  If you know that Churchman cards always have crosshatching then you shouldn't expect them to have disappeared however good the grading.  On the other hand, if a blemish has been added later then it reduces the grading.  The CSGB grading is to a certain extent related to what the card looked like originally, however bad that was, and not necessarily what it looks like now. 

It also helps to know the dealers.  One dealer I regularly bought from always managed to get cards in amazing quality.  They were so good that I sometimes suspected they were forgeries although all the tests showed they were genuine.  If he sold a card as VG I bought it without hesitation as it was usually EX.  Another dealer I know tends to be a bit generous with his grades.  If I want a VG I would never buy anything less than VG-EX from him.  But his grades are consistent so I know what I'm getting.  Even so, it's still pot luck whether the picture is well-centred and the corners 90 degrees.

[mrp1017]

Yeah but if you are putting together a balls on set of Churchmans, wouldn't you want to know the crosshatching exists on the card you want to buy? I need that dealer to disclose this fact and think its important enough to consider.
I have begun to know my British dealers and how they grade. I have one guy and we are both on the same page when it comes to grading. I trust his Excellents to be razor sharp, clean and fresh.

Now if I can only get some of you guys to holder the cards when you ship. Wayyyyy too many time I have got a naked card in the mail that is sandwiched between a piece of cardboard floating around the envelope. When does common sense take over? Invest in some Card Savers or cut out a plastic album page! Why don't these guys realize this card in the 7-10 days to America is shifting around and crushing the condition of the corners? A sandwich baggie and tape doesnt protect a card no matter how much you wish it would.

[Ogdenscards]

It is interesting to hear the comments made by all parties, but my experience in buying cards, is that the American markets tends to exaggerate the condition. There are cards for sale at the moment in Guinea Gold’s saying that they are very good for there age, I would through them in the bin.

My intention is to try and get all of Ogden’s and sometimes I just have to be satisfied with what I can get but I also get great pleasure in upgrading.

If my aim was to get perfection every time my collection would be small.

Each to their own, I say no problem with what is being said but perfection seems to be above excellent.
Regards David

[IanSammel]

There are cards for sale at the moment in Guinea Gold’s saying that they are very good for there age, I would through them in the bin.

"Good for its age" is just a euphemism for "junk".  If a card is good, it's good, and if it's bad, it's bad however old it is. 

[mrp1017]

I dont think I would be throwing any cards from the turn of the century in the trash.